Curse

Lusciious · Jan 18, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Generic QQ bar - http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Me/N_Generic_QQ_Bar
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Which do you prefer ? MoR or LA ? IMO, I feel that LA is better because I would have lesser energy problems . 9 pips of energy regen is nice . also, by echoing and spamming necrosis, you wouldn't have a problem maintaining it unless it gets removed .

MoR on the other hand .. I don't know how it would manage it's energy . i don't think AI and DD would be enough to manage from all the necrosis spamming .

By Ural's hammer ... why ?
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I don't see why this skill is good with such a short duration and nearly 3-4 times longer recharge.

Also, it cancels out with arcane echo (arcane echo prematurely ends if you use a non-spell skill)

Care to explain ?

Non related questions
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Is the domination build on PvX good ? o.o I don't like relying on AP . Besides, I think AP would get nerfed .. so yeah .

Thanks for the help

Elon's Rose · Jan 18, 2010, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Generic QQ bar - http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Me/N_Generic_QQ_Bar

By Ural's hammer ... why ?

It's the only significant damage buff that can't be stripped (except Ebon Battle Standard.)

maxxfury · Jan 18, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Id take the MOR version if i ran it, which i wouldnt:s...dont forget it cuts the recharges of the Eman skills too, increasing the effect giving you more energy to play with.

Shorter cool down = more skills used = more damage done.

And BUH, dont forget that Shout. (7...10 seconds.) You have +2 Health regeneration and do +25% damage. Lasts 7...10 more seconds for each earshot ally under 50% Health. Easily have it lasting its recharge time with 2 people under 50% health..Especially if you run an agressive team with less passive defense ect.

Also it only cancels out arcane echo BEFORE you copy a spell with it..when the arcane echo enchant is in your gui bar. Once a spell is copied it is fine. OR you could shout BUH just before arcane echo has finished casting.

The dom bars on pvx are fine, but dont stand up to AP as an elite, nor does reactive hexing in most general situations, or even this...spamming necrosis is one thing, building a full abr around it is another :./

Braxton619 · Jan 18, 2010, 11:58 PM // 23:58

I would definitely do MoR.

LA is okay but its not really needed much.

The Josip · Jan 19, 2010, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Well, what exactly are you trying to achieve? If you don't feel like making your own build, here's the one I use right now and IMO it's the strongest mesmer PvE build if used right:

AIncantation
AEcho
EVAS
AP
Technobabble
Pain Inverter
Unnatural Sig
Rez / something else

Sup FC rune, spear with daze mod.

If that QQ PvX build got 4,75/5 rating there, this one gives 9. But it still requires you to know how to play a mesmer: in particular, to TAB and "T" (called target), to know what spell to Echo depending on the situation, and what spell to cast on what enemy (on charr hexer you don't cast PI, that goes on their ranger for instance).

Chthon · Jan 19, 2010, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Builds like that being rated "great" are why PvX should not be trusted...

Cuilan · Jan 19, 2010, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Mantra of Recovery because the build already has enough energy management. While the build isn't great, it is able to constantly deal damage. That's a whole lot more than what can be said about the majority of most people's caster builds. It also has a non-liner pattern you have to learn to keep it going.

As for the Assassin's Promise bar, Pain Inverter is a good skill, but it doesn't belong on an AP bar. Unnatural signet is good too, but situational and (generally) meaningless if the caster who summons them is dead.

maxxfury · Jan 19, 2010, 01:32 AM // 01:32

The only truely viable bars for a mes atm are in my opinion Me/E Fevered dreams(extend) and Me/A pve skill platform.

Some stuff like Esurge+cop for tank and spank works but still...

Everything else falls short, but then for pve, short = passable.

And you can get away with passable over optimal in 99% of situations..

Sadly there isnt a whole lot a mes can bring to the table right now.

Lusciious · Jan 19, 2010, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Thanks for explaining By Ural's Hammer.

What are a few advantages of using MoR instead of LA ?

I wanted LA because Fragility + Weaken Armour = AoE Hex + Condition = No problems fueling discord even without calling . But yeah .. If someone can give me a few advantages of why MoR is better then i might just use MoR .

IMO, with MoR, you don't have to copy necrosis . So theoretically, at sunspear rank 1, you would be doing 60 damage every ... 1 1/3 second . which ends up with 180 damage in 4 seconds . This can already be considered spamming as you've already wasted 15 energy in 4 seconds . With 4 Pips of energy regen, that would mean you would have gained like 5 energy back . That results in a loss of 10 energy . If you were to copy Necrosis, you would of course be able to achieve higher DPS however, don't forget that you're adding 15 more energy to that 10 energy that's already lost . There's no point copying CoP now that it's nerfed . However i'm not saying it's useless . Degens don't stack ..

However with LA, energy would not be much of a problem . you could cast roughly 4 necrosis (if you copied necrosis) in 4 seconds, you would end up with 240 damage done and you would have wasted 20 energy . However at 9 pips of energy regen, it means that you are gaining 3 energy back per second . 20 - 3*4 = 8 energy loss .

Higher DPS and lower energy loss . Also, that free optional slot is always a plus . So why did you guys choose MoR over LA ?

I do like the advantages of using AP. Being able to spam skills despite their recharge (e.g. By Ural's Hammer) however that restricting really puts me off . I used to be a hardcore player but i decided to start playing more casually so it doesn't hurt if my build isn't the best .

@Maxxfury, would you care to explain more about Me/E Fevered dreams (extend)?

Apparently it seems like every class is abusing AP . If this goes on, AP is sure to get nerfed .. and AP is boring imo . You already restricted yourself with a secondary profession . I think fragility is better than AP if you were to be using discord . AoE Hex at a cheap price and a quick recharge is nice . You could get another Elite in place of AP in other words, more utility / satisfaction / fun . Like mentioned earlier, it doesn't have to be excellent . It just needs to get the job done .

Yes i know you could make something fun with AP . But the most fun build would be Signet of Illusion . Think of all the possibilities that you can make with SoI . xD .

Anyway, if the great builds on PvX are just passable then why do everyone use it and be so successful at them ? e.g. an N/Rt Healer, or a Mo/W Monk or a W/ Dev Hammer etc .. I feel that the builds on PvX were adjusted to fit general PvE or PvP and not specific areas .

Just so you know, the purpose of this is so that i can find something else to do (more damage oriented) instead of just supporting with daze like hexes, interrupts etc .. Look . Mesmers are one of the only class which have many armour ignoring skills which are good for HM . Why not make the most of it . Yes i know that's in the Domination line ..

Also, you know how mobs tend to cast fewer spells if you were to cast VoR on them right ? Would VoR + Wastrel's Worry be a good combination to use against high AL foes ? Or should i just stick to Backfire for castors and Empathy for physicals ?

Just a random question . Does utility really make a big difference in your build ? If you're a damage dealer and not a supporter . I mean i could always drop By Ural's Hammer for EBSoH . and getting Cry of Fustration for the AoE interrupt .

The Josip · Jan 19, 2010, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

While the build isn't great, it is able to constantly deal damage. That's a whole lot more than what can be said about the majority of most people's caster builds.

While it's true that most people don't have optimized builds, we have to look at what exactly constant dealing of damage means. Sometimes, like with Fevered Dreams, you will do a burst of damage and conditions, but then you'll need a bit of time to regen. That is, you won't be spamming 24/7. The build is still overall good, because the main task of the build is to take control of the start of the battle, and after doing first combo there are only remnants of the mob left, if even that. These remnants pose no threat so you can regen during that time or do another Ash Blast + YMLD combo or something like that. It will speed things up a bit but the initial task is done.

Different example is AP build where you will be spamming all the time, unless of course you miss AP.

So here we have two builds which are different in terms of frequency of damage, but both good. Whether a build is good or not therefore depends on other factors.

Quote:

As for the Assassin's Promise bar, Pain Inverter is a good skill, but it doesn't belong on an AP bar. Unnatural signet is good too, but situational and (generally) meaningless if the caster who summons them is dead.

Unnatural signet isn't situational. It's constant armor-ignoring damage that requires no energy. Unnatural signet isn't for summons and spirits (although it's even better for that), but for any kind of enemy. Usually used for finishing APed target.

As for Pain Inverter, why wouldn't it belong to AP bar? What better skill is there to use? With AP you can just spam this skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

I wanted LA because Fragility + Weaken Armour = AoE Hex + Condition = No problems fueling discord even without calling . But yeah .. If someone can give me a few advantages of why MoR is better then i might just use MoR .

MoR is different than LA, it's like comparing Fragility to Mantra of Resolve.

If you want conditions and hexes, you can just go with Fevered Dreams build. Something like: Glyph of Energy, FDreams, Fragility, YMLD, Ash Blast, Finish Him, Ruby Djinn, Rez/optional. You can do insane stuff with this; try Venta Cemetary HM. Of course, this is my favorite version, others use theirs. Single-handedly you're inflicting and spreading 6 conditions.

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IMO, with MoR, you don't have to copy necrosis

What puzzles me is that you want a build where you don't need to call discord target, but you're using necrosis yourself. That's just not optimal.

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i decided to start playing more casually so it doesn't hurt if my build isn't the best

If you want any kind of build then you wouldn't be posting here in the forum. I personally don't mind using weaker builds if they are fun *but* they have to be optimized for what they do. Which is why I'm asking you what you're trying to achieve, what are the skills you really want to use just for fun so we can adapt the rest of the build. Or if no skill desire in particular, what goal you want to achieve.

For instance, you keep mentioning necrosis and are wondering whether LA or MoR would go better with it. But regardless of how much damage you get with necrosis, with LA or MoR, you still will do less than with Pain Inverter which will do something like 500 damage per cast (either instant damage in 1 second or damage over next several seconds).

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and AP is boring imo . You already restricted yourself with a secondary profession

Well what do you want, to use Mesmer-only skills in PvE? I'm sorry but as much as we love mesmers, they suck in PvE. Always have. They are probably the most nerfed profession in the history of GW, and even in the beginning they sucked in PvE. But with good secondary skills, and PvE skills, they are insanely good if you know how to play.
But as I said, if you just want mesmer only skills, pick the ones that seem most fun to you. For instance, I used to go with arcane echoed Diversion against a boss :> Or you can go with Lyssa's Aura and spam Clumsiness, Wandering, and other skills. It's ok, but not nearly as good as AP builds.

In defense of AP, I'll say that it's not as boring as it seems, because there are so many things you can do with it. I would like to use mesmer elite skills (other than LA or MoR or FD), but what choice you have? Interrupt elites are no-no in HM, which leaves you with half of mesmer elites, because of which the rest of your build is crippled since you cant take AP.

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I think fragility is better than AP if you were to be using discord . AoE Hex at a cheap price and a quick recharge is nice

No, nothing is as good as AP, and FD is only thing that is close. Anything else but FD is miles away. Sure, your AoE cheap hex is cool, but AoE hexes don't kill mobs, damage does. Sure, you helped discord trigger, during which time APer also helped discord trigger but also killed 2 monsters singlehandedly by then.

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But the most fun build would be Signet of Illusion . Think of all the possibilities that you can make with SoI

SoI is fun but weak. I tried it. I've nothing against people playing for fun, I do it too, it's cool, but it needs to be clearly said "this is for fun, but 2-5x weaker than AP build".

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Mesmers are one of the only class which have many armour ignoring skills which are good for HM

Recharge, cost, single-target focus.

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I mean i could always drop By Ural's Hammer for EBSoH . and getting Cry of Fustration for the AoE interrupt .

Ural is so overrated skill. At least on casters (never tried it on physical). If you want it for fun ok, but it's not optimal. I would only consider Ural if I was IW mesmer

CoF is fun... on your hero. Good luck interrupting in HM. EBSoH would be only good with lots of minions and even then you dont want to be near them but behind in a safe place so I'm not sure it would be practical. I like the idea behind wells and wards, but have to admit that in practice it just doesn't work for me. If I play with H/H I don't have place for wards because other things seem better, and if I play with people I'd prefer they spear and kite, or are mobile, than be restricted to one area. Maybe someone has different experience. My hero teams are usually more mobile than those at PvXwiki. My Discord hero has Fall Back for instance.

Lusciious · Jan 19, 2010, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Is FD really that good ? o.o

It's like having epidemic as an elite .

I guess it's time for me to unlock fevered dreams then

With so many conditions and hexes, i'm sure you can easily fuel discord without calling .

Quote:

MoR is different than LA, it's like comparing Fragility to Mantra of Resolve.

so how are they different then ?

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I would like to use mesmer elite skills (other than LA or MoR or FD), but what choice you have?

so true .. there aren't many good elites for mesmers in HM since most of them make up interrupts .

Well i guess i have to get ascended and change my secondary profession then

but for now, i'll stick with Me/N . Wanna get legendary survivor first .

anyway, i can't wait to try Me/A AP and Me/E FD

Quote:

Which is why I'm asking you what you're trying to achieve, what are the skills you really want to use just for fun so we can adapt the rest of the build. Or if no skill desire in particular, what goal you want to achieve.

I want to be a damage dealer and not a support . The FD build you mentioned sounds really good . There isn't any FD builds on PvX so i didn't know . Yes i know i rely on PvX too much ..

maxxfury · Jan 19, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

@Maxxfury, would you care to explain more about Me/E Fevered dreams (extend)?

My pleasure.

Obviously its fevered dreams with a heap of conditions to shut down, disrupt and damage a group in a pretty large area.

[fevered dreams][fragility][glyph of lesser energy][ymlad][ash blast][finish him][drain delusions]
with
[cry of pain] / [summon ruby djinn](*2) / [you are all weaklings](*1)

Attributes in illusion(12) and earth(10) with the rest in fc and inspiration. can vary with taste.

That gives you blind, cripple, cracked armour, deep wound, weakness(*1), burning(*2), and repeated bouts of daze and interupts. with possible degen and aoe damage from cop depending on which 3rd pve skill you take.

This can be run as a necro also but then you forgo the better shutdown from blind for easier emanagment.

Cuilan · Jan 19, 2010, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

I mean i could always drop By Ural's Hammer for EBSoH.

Apparently EBSoH only buffs non-armor ignoring damage.

The Josip, do mesmers suck or are they insanely good? Pick one.

Chthon · Jan 19, 2010, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

The only truely viable bars for a mes atm are in my opinion Me/E Fevered dreams(extend) and Me/A pve skill platform.

...

Sadly there isnt a whole lot a mes can bring to the table right now.

That's pretty much the size of it.

I'd also add that sometimes a mesmer finds a niche in a team build taking over hex and condition cleaning duties from a 2-ER backline, but that's a very narrow niche and definitely a "bitch build."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Is FD really that good ? o.o

It's like having epidemic as an elite .

Yes, it's that good. It's a defensive build, though, so H+H is going to be a pain. The main contribution it brings is that everything is blind, dazed, and crippled constantly. This really does a great deal to reduce the monsters' damage output. The rest of the build is trying to scrabble some damage potential out of it, with passable, but not great, results, mostly via Frag.

The Josip · Jan 19, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Is FD really that good ? o.o

It's great in what it does. But I mostly use it for fun here and there, since FD is quite different from most builds you can find in the game. It's refreshing.

But FD is support, not damage dealing. Ok it deals damage too, but primarily it's support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

The Josip, do mesmers suck or are they insanely good? Pick one.

They'll suck if you play then and be insanely good if I play them.

(see I don't have to pick one, and I especially hate when someone wants to find something wrong in my writing by forcing me to pick black or white stance; no thanks)

Athrun Feya · Jan 19, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Hmm, removed/changed a number of votes so the build is now in the Good category (a number of the votes referred to the old CoP).

Also people seem confused, so I'll make it clear:
EBSoH does NOT work with armor-ignoring damage.

The Drunkard · Jan 19, 2010, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

It's great in what it does. But I mostly use it for fun here and there, since FD is quite different from most builds you can find in the game. It's refreshing.

But FD is support, not damage dealing. Ok it deals damage too, but primarily it's support.

FD can put out large packets of armor-ignoring dps with GoI, Steam, you're all weaklings, and finish him. The best thing about FD is the daze condition, and how you can spread it to the rest of the mob. Technobable and extend conditions also work, but FD has a larger range and is a fire-and-forget spell.

As far as the build the OP posted, I prefer mind wrack instead of fragility (30sec duration vs. 10 damage per condition+10 sec duration) or shrinking armor. I'd also replace arc echo with EBVaS because of it's kd. Go with MoR as the elite.

maxxfury · Jan 19, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

Hmm, removed/changed a number of votes so the build is now in the Good category (a number of the votes referred to the old CoP).

Also people seem confused, so I'll make it clear:
EBSoH does NOT work with armor-ignoring damage.

Lau strikes again! glad there is someone there with some stroke who has a clue :P *wink

~jayson

Lusciious · Jan 19, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Atm, I've decided to try Me/A AP and Me/E FD .

Thanks for all the help/your opinions guys

Xenomortis · Jan 20, 2010, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

FD can put out large packets of armor-ignoring dps with GoI, Steam, you're all weaklings, and finish him. The best thing about FD is the daze condition, and how you can spread it to the rest of the mob. Technobable and extend conditions also work, but FD has a larger range and is a fire-and-forget spell.

The damage is hardly large.
The pressure it puts out is reasonable but you're not likely going to kill anything by yourself.